Isreal problems

S

s4

Guest
[QUOTEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/01/18/mideast.violence/]
JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israeli F-16 fighter jets dropped seven missiles on the compound of the Palestinian governor of Tulkarem early Friday morning, according to a spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces, who said the strikes were in response to an attack by a Palestinian militant on a bat mitzvah in Hadera that left six Israelis dead Thursday.
[/QUOTEURL]

Read the full story at the link above. When will all the violence end? I know what some of you are going to say, but go ahead and say it anyway.

We need a good political thread to replace the last one here. It's too bad shit like this goes on. It really sucks.
 
I really doubt that the violence over there will stop in the near future.
Palestinians and Israelis have been trying to murder each other for every single day in the last 3 decades.

I'm afraid that Israel will snap at a certain point, and will try to invade the Palestinian villages which such extreme force, that there will be unacceptable amounts of casualties.
The military strength of Israel exceeds the strength of the Palestinian forces many times.
The Palestinians are really motivated warriors, but don't have the right equiptment.
The current situation seems to get out of hand. Diplomacy has failed many times, and will fail again I am afraid.

The two countries are making promises to each other over and over again, but there rarely keep those promises. This is, in my opinion, a great cause for the problems over there: they miss the trust in each others leaders....and to be honest, can we blame them?
I don't really have an idea how this situation can be solved; diplomacy has failed over and over again. Military power hasn't proven to be succesfull either...
International troops won't be an option either: neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians will agree with such an idea....

Like s4 said: the situation really sucks over there.
 
S

s4

Guest
The big problem with them going to war is that larger countries like the US will get involved which I think would be a big mistake. I don't care if the whole country would disappear if the rest of the world could live in peace.
 

patweb

Eater of Hot Peppered Steak
I don't think there will be any significant positive developments until Arafat is dead.

He has completely failed at controlling the criminal element (terrorists).

Even in the recent cease fire he ordered. The groups that 'complied' made no guarentee for violence in the 'occupied territories'.
 

Gonzo

Infinitesimally Outrageous
Staff member
Can anyone name a country, that has or has had problems with another, where a peace process worked, without one of the countries being beaten soundly in a war?


Neither can I.
 
S

s4

Guest
Absolutely, Russia and the US have good relations. In addition, China and the US do a lot of trading. It's only these fucked up little countries that are the problem.
 

Gonzo

Infinitesimally Outrageous
Staff member
The US won the Cold War and we're still struggling with China:lurk:
 

Pradeep

Frontbottom
patweb said:
I don't think there will be any significant positive developments until Arafat is dead.

He has completely failed at controlling the criminal element (terrorists).

Even in the recent cease fire he ordered. The groups that 'complied' made no guarentee for violence in the 'occupied territories'.

Hmm, terrorists = criminals = dont obey the law. Arafat lays down the law. The terrorists decide not to obey. You are talking about a head of state. Should Clinton be killed because he allowed Tim McVeigh to blow up the Federal building in Oklahoma? Of course not. If Arafat is murdered by Israel the streets will run with blood. And someone who does not desire peace as much as Arafat will take his place. He has pressure from Israel on one side, and the Palestinian people who support him on the other.

The beginning of the solution is for Israeli forces to withdraw from the illegally occupied territory that it is busy building settlements on.
 

unclehobart

this is my special title
We fought the Russians several times via proxy nations over several decades. Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Honduras, Angola...
 
S

s4

Guest
I go back to what Gonzo said:

Can anyone name a country, that has or has had problems with another, where a peace process worked, without one of the countries being beaten soundly in a war?

We have never had direct war against Russia or China. I am focusing squarely on what Gonz said not about battles fought through other countries.
 
S

s4

Guest
If anybody is readin' this in Israel. That's my advice the whole country is doomed to have even more decades of this kind of stuff.
 

patweb

Eater of Hot Peppered Steak
>>Hmm, terrorists = criminals = dont obey the law. Arafat lays down the law. The terrorists decide not to obey. You are talking about a head of state. Should Clinton be killed because he allowed Tim McVeigh to blow up the Federal building in Oklahoma?<<

The 'Terrorists' DID obey Arafat, but they did so in their own terms. We are not talking about individuals here, we are talking about government sanctioned terrorist organizations. The reason I said that there will be no positive developments until Arafat dies is because Israel and the world has lost (or never had) faith in him. So as long as Arafat is in the picture the USA and UN are hogtied by his duplicity. (duplicity which is well documented). Once he is gone, they will have a new leader and fresh hope. I agree wholeheartedly that Israel should withdraw from the Occupied Territories. That is hard to do when they are being shot at in the process. You see, it is difficult for a military to beat a retreat under fire (assuming that is what they want to do). The clear problem is that PLO law enforcement is either incapable or unwilling to disarm these groups.

So if some crazy Canadians were storming over the USA border with machine guns and killing our CITIZENS (the people we are supposed to be protecting), and those people were freinds of the mounties (ok, going out on a limb here), and they hung out under the mounties protection, who should the USA go after?

>> Of course not. If Arafat is murdered by Israel the streets will run with blood. And someone who does not desire peace as much as Arafat will take his place. He has pressure from Israel on one side, and the Palestinian people who support him on the other.<<

The solution is simple once Arafat is gone. Because if the new leader refuses to come to an equitable agreement, then Palestine is history. Again, I don't say this in support of Israel, it is just a fact. When the USA and the world sees an uncooperative PA leader the solution is obvious. I think that the Israeli's in voting for Sharon pretty much said that they aren't going to take it anymore. I think a majority of them felt that Sharon really would wipe them out. Unfortunately for the Israeli's, there is no world consensus (nor is there likely ever to be) that would justify such a genocidal act.

>>The beginning of the solution is for Israeli forces to withdraw from the illegally occupied territory that it is busy building settlements on.<<

Of the two points in which Israel is wrong, this is probably the biggest. There is no LAWFUL reason for these settlements and I think that really they should be forced to remove them. Perhaps they WOULD be forced to remove them if the Palestinians would quit acts of terrorism. The other point being Jerusalem. Obviously it can't be the capitol of both nations.

The crappy part is that Israel FEEDS on the stupidity of Palestinian terror as justification for retaliation. This 'USA War on Terrorism' has given Israel even more justification for retaliation (they are just doing things our way, right?).
 

patweb

Eater of Hot Peppered Steak
Here is a couple of peices I wrote on the subject.

This to give you an idea of what I feel about the situation. All of these written long prior to Sept. 11th.

My envisionment of what would be an Israeli invasion.
______________
The Retreat from Palestine- A work of fiction.

They must have seen it coming. Before Operation Goliath commenced, most of the arms and henchmen were moved out of Occupied Palestine. What wealth was to be had was transferred to Muslim controlled financial institutions. As usual, the Hamas faded back behind the borders of Jordan and the Hizballah to Syria.

Strategically placed incendiary devices insured that anything of economic worth was already blown. We gave up on taking back the buildings. Those that were left standing were in poor condition and fettered with booby traps anyway, so are scheduled for demolition. The DECON units will follow with NBC detection equipment. We think they may have poisoned the wells and orchards.

Arafat didn’t have a choice; we will never know why he didn’t put up a fight. His body was found by the IDF with bullet wounds in the back of his head. There is already talk of a permanent memorial to be placed in Bagdad, a mobile one that might one day sit in Jerusalem or, perhaps Tel Aviv. The memorial will decry the execution of the Palestinians Great Martyr by the Zionist.

The Iraqi military has set up refugee camps in Jordan as a humanitarian gesture. We are most concerned about that. Jordan and Egypt have called to the US for financial aid in the assistance of housing, feeding and providing for the displaced population. They have called for the US to decry the move and force an Israeli retreat. Since they didn’t listen, the Russians are pledging to send economic and logistic aid.

Israel is now unified! G-d be praised, we won. The land will heal itself.


_______________
My position on the methods of the Israeli's war machine.
_____________________

Non-Invasive methods of fighting an unpopular war.

What I will call Moshe Propaganda Mechanisms.

...being done, albeit under the color of self-defense.

1. Alienization and dehumanization of the Palestinian people. Refusal to accept the Palestinians right to self-determination. (never mind that the Palestinians have walked themselves nicely into the role of the villain).

2. Destruction of civic and political infrastructure. Targeting the government and military to eliminate organized resistance to occupation.

3. Economic suppression and interdiction into Palestinians daily life. By suppressing the ability of civilians to conduct business and daily life via economic boycott and controlling the movement of people and goods within and around the Palestinians territory.

4. RELEGIOUS and Ethnic persecution. Improperly lumping Palestinian radical Muslims into the general Muslim population belief of religious tolerance. Many Muslim organizations stand up against the crimes of CERTAIN Palestinian platforms. Treating Palestine and Palestinians as a non-race and non-nation under the table while espousing it's efforts to mediate with them on the table.

5. Reciprocating military escalation. Targeting of civilian areas with unbalanced firepower. Use of military force to quell foreign civic disturbance. Lack of civic infrastructure (step 2) prevents domestic interdiction.

Israel has its work cut out for it. Once it has properly usurped Palestinian Authority it will have to deal with the threats from outside of its borders in a more direct fashion.

_____________________________
Fictional Account-
______________________________

The Brother of a Hero?

Hello, My name is Muhammad. I am a 12-year-old living on the West Bank. I was dead before I was born. Some might say, why do you say this? I will tell you. One day a long time ago, my Grandpa owned some land down by the shore. He grew olives and loved to fish. He was a nice and benevolent man, so the soldiers let him alone. He lived in peace with his Jewish neighbors. They worked side by side, traveled the same roads and drank from the same well. All of that was destined to change. My Grandpa heard one day that the land he owned now belongs to Israel (actually, it always was Israel, or so he was told). A man came from the east. A powerful sheik that says he will help the people to right this injustice. He helped turn all the Arabs against the Jewish occupiers of my Grandpa's homeland. It was wrong, we know, it is now why we suffer so to this day. There were many wars; the powerful armies did not have the tenacity, or the will, to overcome the powers of the west. They packed up and went home. My grandpa was no longer welcomed by the Jews, which were his friends. He had become 'one of them'. He never really considered why he chose to stay. One day another man comes from Egypt. The man is rich and powerful. Beloved by the Arab Nations. He claims to represent us, the "Palestinians", or so he said. That does not matter now.

We embraced him because noone else will. He gave my father an identity and sense of worth that noone else would. Many of my father’s friends and relatives reject him. They say "He is not good enough, his politics are too slow. We want justice and retribution". That does not matter now. These new people teach hate. They teach the children that the Israeli's hate us, so we should hate them even more. It is the only way. The man from Egypt has no choice but the embrace the new people. He fears for his life, after all. That does not matter now.

My older brother was consumed by the hatred. They told him that he was nothing on earth. That there was only one way to make something of himself in the eyes of Allah. He believed them. I hope he is with Allah now. He martyred himself in June. We had a party. Many of the elders were proud. How could we help it, we didn't know. That does not matter now.

When I was five, I went to Kindergarten. We had a visit from Mickey Mouse. He is our hero from America. He told us it was ok to hate the Jews. How they have stolen our land, denied us our identity and pumped sewage into our water. We believed him. That does not matter now.

When I was eight, I was given a gun to look at. It was made in China, or so I was told. "One day you will be given a gun like this. We want to make sure you know what it is for. It is for killing Jews.” or so I was told. Allah has blessed you, he has blessed the gun, and he has blessed every bullet. For now I was given a sling. "Until you get a gun, you will use rocks, you will use sticks, you will use your arms". That does not matter now.

All I wanted was a chance. A chance to grow up, to have a job, to live in happiness, to eat lamb and drink wine. That does not matter anymore.

I hear a rumbling in the distance. Flashes of light. A jet screams overhead. The buildings around me are disappearing in clouds of dust and debris. There is screaming, injury and death all around me. Suddenly I am blind and cannot hear. I taste blood on my lips. It is my blood! Allah Akbar. Goodbye.

There is no moral to this story.

______________________________
 
Top